Ben Stein is a complete and utter douchebag.

Oh, Ben Stein. How I miss the glory days when your monotone delivery added humor to movies like Ferris Bueller’s Day Off or Visine Commercials. When you had a television show that just involved you outsmarting contestants who attempted to get “your money”. These things did so well to make everyone forget that you were Nixon’s speechwriter and accused Bob Woodward of inventing Deep Throat just to make Nixon look bad.

By and large, Stein’s comedic delivery channeled through a Stephen Wright monotone with that aura of “I’m totally smarter than you” made it so no one remembered that, in your actual substantive career, you weren’t the most admirable character.

Fortunately, Stein decided to remind everyone with his creation of “Expelled”. I’m not linking to it because I’m not going to promote it in any way shape or form.

Now, I’m not a scientist by trade. I have a more than passing interest in science and always have, I read Dawkins and pay attention to scientific advancements and generally keep up on things. But when it comes to the really deep stuff, I leave that to the experts. So whenever you’re done here, please peruse this series by Scientific American to understand just what’s wrong with Intelligent Design from a biologist’s perspective.

My point, though, is to take that famed and loved internet blogger tactic and tear into something without having seen it. For the record, the only way I will see this movie is if I can sneak into it or someone hands me a bootlegged copy. I won’t accept a free ticket, because I don’t want my presence in the theater contributing a single dollar to this pile.

Moving along. I knew something was terribly, terribly wrong when in watching interviews and reading up on Expelled, the scope and purpose of the movie seemed suspect. From the IMDB profile (so I’m assuming it’s the “official” tagline): Big science has expelled smart new ideas from the classroom…What they forgot is that every generation has its Rebel! The website also has a blog which leads off with a quote from an atheist bashing the movie despite not seeing it, much as I’m doing.

This is how we know Ben Stein’s motives have almost nothing to do with actually putting evolution and Intelligent Design on opposite sides of a boxing ring and letting them duke it out. Stein has crafted his movie to focus on nothing but the “persecution” of ID, as though “Big Science” were this big monolith that is resisting the legitimate studies and findings of ID and courageous Ben Stein is coming to the rescue.

And let me say: Ben is right. He is 100% correct. The scientific community has no tolerance for Intelligent Design, and for a good reason. It is not good science.

ID is not science, because it bases itself on the concept of “we don’t know, therefore…” Since evolution (Stein has unceasingly called it “Darwinism” despite the fact that no scientists call it that) is not 100% perfect or have answers for absolutely every question that could possibly be brought to it at this point… it’s wrong! Toss in a “designer” and bang, all done. How’d it get there? Designer. Why does it look like that? Designer.

ID makes no predictions, has no models, is based on no evidence. It is a “science” that has come about from considering unanswered questions “bad”. There is no actual science to ID, there is no involved theory, nor have there been any testing of a hypothesis because, by nature, it cannot be tested.

Ben’s defense of this bunk is nicely shot down with one observation by Scientific American: he never gets into the science of ID.

Stein doesn’t explain why ID makes more sense, and that’s a good thing. If he did that, the movie would collapse on itself. There’s no way to make a scientific comparison between evolution and ID because one is the result of a century or so of scientific rigor, the other is based on attempting to make creationism sound less stupid.

To put it simply, evolution is based on discoveries; ID is based on a lack of discoveries. Outside of “finding” the “designer” there is literally no way to “prove” anything was designed. That’s why their biggest argument isn’t evidence of design empirically, but rather an appeal that the complexity is too much for the average person to see as anything but design. It relies on ignorance.

Ignorance which Stein is preying upon by presenting ID as the poor, repressed underdog, not allowed into the room of scientific debate and education because scientists are mean and elitist. Not because it has no merits, because it has no reason TO be taught as science, no. ID is perfectly legitimate.

I could easily make a movie explaining how terribly alchemy is shunned from Big Science, I could find cranks and kooks who love alchemy and think it’s legitimate and present it in the same way, but it wouldn’t be able to escape the obvious: science doesn’t embrace it because it’s crap.

Ben Stein is trying to force established science to lower itself to the designation of “unproven idea”, and elevate ID to “legitimate theory”, when the former is more than that and latter is far less. If he succeeds, he will succeed only in damaging our scientific advancement even more than has already been done.

The United States ranks frighteningly low in accepting evolution as legitimate science, and this isn’t helping. The world is laughing at us, Ben Stein, and you are wearing our ignorance on a banner and trying to rally people beneath it.

23 responses to “Ben Stein is a complete and utter douchebag.

  1. Amen, Brother. Amen.

  2. Amen, Brother. Amen.

  3. Couldn’t have been more right.

  4. Couldn’t have been more right.

  5. One problem I see with this nonsense is that some people will become “believers” in this stupidity thanks to Stein.

  6. One problem I see with this nonsense is that some people will become “believers” in this stupidity thanks to Stein.

  7. As a Creationist, I wish that the ID movement would shut up, and that Ben Stein would go away.

    I believe in Creation because I am a devout Christian. Frankly, I don’t need to tame it down and call it Intelligent Design, and I don’t care to have it taught in schools.

    I have the impression lately that Stein’s latest whim, having been a political hack, actor, and game show … whatever … is to be Rush Limbaugh. Because we needed another one, I guess.

  8. As a Creationist, I wish that the ID movement would shut up, and that Ben Stein would go away.

    I believe in Creation because I am a devout Christian. Frankly, I don’t need to tame it down and call it Intelligent Design, and I don’t care to have it taught in schools.

    I have the impression lately that Stein’s latest whim, having been a political hack, actor, and game show … whatever … is to be Rush Limbaugh. Because we needed another one, I guess.

  9. @wickle,

    To expand on your point, your belief in Creation seems based in faith. The whole point of faith (as the Biblical story of Abraham illustrates) is that you can’t have proof. That eliminates doubt, and therefore the ability to have faith. I would say ID doesn’t just ‘tone down’ a belief in Creation, it actually seriously undermines its tenets.

    Also, as an atheist, it doesn’t really seem to me that evolution really threatens Christianity the way that so many people feel it does; if you have an Abrahamian sense of faith, there’s no harm in explaining the way that the world works scientifically as long as your overriding faith is that it was originally created by God.

    What do you think?

  10. @wickle,

    To expand on your point, your belief in Creation seems based in faith. The whole point of faith (as the Biblical story of Abraham illustrates) is that you can’t have proof. That eliminates doubt, and therefore the ability to have faith. I would say ID doesn’t just ‘tone down’ a belief in Creation, it actually seriously undermines its tenets.

    Also, as an atheist, it doesn’t really seem to me that evolution really threatens Christianity the way that so many people feel it does; if you have an Abrahamian sense of faith, there’s no harm in explaining the way that the world works scientifically as long as your overriding faith is that it was originally created by God.

    What do you think?

  11. I think that you’re right, Vasken. I’m not afraid of the idea that God chose to use an evolutionary device. It doesn’t matter to me. God did it … but I don’t expect an atheist to believe that, or necessarily to take seriously my position. Given that an atheist doesn’t believe in God, the idea that He did something would be a foreign concept, in much the same way that for me to believe that an omnipresent and omnipotent God didn’t create life would be incomprehensible.

    The people who feel threatened, frankly, are weak in their faith. They want to be able to prove the unprovable — and the fact that I can’t show them God creating the universe might well, ultimately, pull them down.

    I think that a lot of people of faith are wasting their time on the ID argument when we should be doing something to live out our faith and make people want to join us. Rather than arguing science against the overwhelming bulk of scientists, why not live it out?

    I’m sure that Mother Theresa believed in Creation. She had better things to do with her time than argue about it. We could all learn a lot from that.

    No one wants to be converted to join the silly people who put together an attack movie on science. But people might be interested in the group that believes in sacrificially giving to others.

    Off-topic, perhaps, but it gets a little more into my feelings about the ID movement in general.

  12. I think that you’re right, Vasken. I’m not afraid of the idea that God chose to use an evolutionary device. It doesn’t matter to me. God did it … but I don’t expect an atheist to believe that, or necessarily to take seriously my position. Given that an atheist doesn’t believe in God, the idea that He did something would be a foreign concept, in much the same way that for me to believe that an omnipresent and omnipotent God didn’t create life would be incomprehensible.

    The people who feel threatened, frankly, are weak in their faith. They want to be able to prove the unprovable — and the fact that I can’t show them God creating the universe might well, ultimately, pull them down.

    I think that a lot of people of faith are wasting their time on the ID argument when we should be doing something to live out our faith and make people want to join us. Rather than arguing science against the overwhelming bulk of scientists, why not live it out?

    I’m sure that Mother Theresa believed in Creation. She had better things to do with her time than argue about it. We could all learn a lot from that.

    No one wants to be converted to join the silly people who put together an attack movie on science. But people might be interested in the group that believes in sacrificially giving to others.

    Off-topic, perhaps, but it gets a little more into my feelings about the ID movement in general.

  13. Hopefully “Expelled” will enlighten the public that wants to be enlightened to the agenda of the evolutionists/atheists/agnostics to shut the Christians up by their taunts and mockings, curses and belittling but, when people know the Truth, they cannot be stopped. This movie is causing almost as much stir among the evolutionist community as The Quest for Right book which was just released. It has a ring of the truth also and the atheists/evolution gangs just hate it and have jumped on it like ravaging wolves out to kill, and few have even read it yet. Truth will prevail no matter how hard you try to gag it. This nation used to be a nation of free speech, but no longer. Everyone can talk but the Christians yet the Christians were the ones that founded this nation. This nation was meant to be Christian no matter what the godless society say or think.

  14. Hopefully “Expelled” will enlighten the public that wants to be enlightened to the agenda of the evolutionists/atheists/agnostics to shut the Christians up by their taunts and mockings, curses and belittling but, when people know the Truth, they cannot be stopped. This movie is causing almost as much stir among the evolutionist community as The Quest for Right book which was just released. It has a ring of the truth also and the atheists/evolution gangs just hate it and have jumped on it like ravaging wolves out to kill, and few have even read it yet. Truth will prevail no matter how hard you try to gag it. This nation used to be a nation of free speech, but no longer. Everyone can talk but the Christians yet the Christians were the ones that founded this nation. This nation was meant to be Christian no matter what the godless society say or think.

  15. Nice post.

    It really is true that the US’s status has been lowered greatly by fundamentalist Christians. I’m Canadian and I’m disgusted with what is going on down there. To be clear, I am not casting all American is one group. I know that roughly half of Americans are not functionally retarded. But that other half…. It is absolutely stunning that the world’s most powerful nation is controlled in significant part by a bunch of fairytale-toting dogmatic theistards who think that their asinine beliefs are *entitled* to respect, and often while they sneer at atheists as being morally-vacuous and, in some cases, at all other religions as being flawed, evil and/or cults.

    I think that it is absolutely true that dogmatism could rightfully be called a psychological disorder – and religion would be at the top of the list of branches of dogma, sharing the stage with other types of dogma (e.g., political dogmas ). A dogmatist is characterized by their inability or unwillingness to apply honest rational fair-minded consideration within particular areas of contemplation. Whereas they could be open-minded and highly effective critical thinkers in pretty well all other areas, when it comes to their dogma they are of the highest resolve that they cannot be wrong. Their dogma is interfering with their ability to engage in honest intelligent thought, and it is socially divisive in that dogmatists will prioritize their dogma over honesty, rationality, and often other people altogether.

    Keep on writing, friend. I’m thinking of writing a post on my blog, The Frame Problem, soon wherein I will encourage readers to start their own blogs. While it is true that not every blogger is going to be the next PZ Myers and get thousands of hits a day, most new bloggers will get some viewers, and many will get a few new people to start reading blogs simply because the new blogger will tell their friends about their blog and their friends will check out their blogs. And if they apply themselves at the blog, things can grow dramatically. When I first started back in mid December, my blog’s readership was at about 150-200 hits/day, and probably like 10-20% of those hits were from friends and associates. The blog is now up to 750-800 hits/day, mostly of people I do not know, but still some of my friends and associates. And even if it had stayed way down, at least a few tens of my friends and associates would get a better description of my opinions on issues like religion, ID, evolution, and lately Scientology, which I’ve posted extensively on.

    Small correction: “Darwinism” is actually used by some scientists. However, the term is clearly used as a disingenuous slur by anti-ev’ers, and this is something that people need to be aware of.

  16. Nice post.

    It really is true that the US’s status has been lowered greatly by fundamentalist Christians. I’m Canadian and I’m disgusted with what is going on down there. To be clear, I am not casting all American is one group. I know that roughly half of Americans are not functionally retarded. But that other half…. It is absolutely stunning that the world’s most powerful nation is controlled in significant part by a bunch of fairytale-toting dogmatic theistards who think that their asinine beliefs are *entitled* to respect, and often while they sneer at atheists as being morally-vacuous and, in some cases, at all other religions as being flawed, evil and/or cults.

    I think that it is absolutely true that dogmatism could rightfully be called a psychological disorder – and religion would be at the top of the list of branches of dogma, sharing the stage with other types of dogma (e.g., political dogmas ). A dogmatist is characterized by their inability or unwillingness to apply honest rational fair-minded consideration within particular areas of contemplation. Whereas they could be open-minded and highly effective critical thinkers in pretty well all other areas, when it comes to their dogma they are of the highest resolve that they cannot be wrong. Their dogma is interfering with their ability to engage in honest intelligent thought, and it is socially divisive in that dogmatists will prioritize their dogma over honesty, rationality, and often other people altogether.

    Keep on writing, friend. I’m thinking of writing a post on my blog, The Frame Problem, soon wherein I will encourage readers to start their own blogs. While it is true that not every blogger is going to be the next PZ Myers and get thousands of hits a day, most new bloggers will get some viewers, and many will get a few new people to start reading blogs simply because the new blogger will tell their friends about their blog and their friends will check out their blogs. And if they apply themselves at the blog, things can grow dramatically. When I first started back in mid December, my blog’s readership was at about 150-200 hits/day, and probably like 10-20% of those hits were from friends and associates. The blog is now up to 750-800 hits/day, mostly of people I do not know, but still some of my friends and associates. And even if it had stayed way down, at least a few tens of my friends and associates would get a better description of my opinions on issues like religion, ID, evolution, and lately Scientology, which I’ve posted extensively on.

    Small correction: “Darwinism” is actually used by some scientists. However, the term is clearly used as a disingenuous slur by anti-ev’ers, and this is something that people need to be aware of.

  17. GailGal:

    Wow, what a load of ignorance.

    Christians were the ones that founded America. Yes, there were a lot of Christians. But there were also deists. And I’m pretty sure (read: Certain) that one of the founding principles was secularism (freedom of and from religion). America is a Christian nation by popularity only, not by policy.

    Christianity is bunk. It is a simple-minded fairy tale. Your beliefs are no more reasonable than those of Muslims, Hindus, or any other group. Your God is no more plausible than the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Xenu.

    ID is opposed by science because IT IS NOT SCIENCE! It is religious dogmatism dressed in scientific language, but with no scientific foundation at all. Evolutionary biology, on the other hand, constitutes one of humanity’s greatest intellectual accomplishments and is one of the shining jewels of science. Evolution is backed by evidence – mountains of it from independent fields such as biology, psychology, neuroscience, geology, anthropology, biochemistry, mathematics, artificial life computer science, etc.

    Christianity and every other world religion that claims to have all the big answers are successful mythologies. That’s all.

  18. GailGal:

    Wow, what a load of ignorance.

    Christians were the ones that founded America. Yes, there were a lot of Christians. But there were also deists. And I’m pretty sure (read: Certain) that one of the founding principles was secularism (freedom of and from religion). America is a Christian nation by popularity only, not by policy.

    Christianity is bunk. It is a simple-minded fairy tale. Your beliefs are no more reasonable than those of Muslims, Hindus, or any other group. Your God is no more plausible than the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Xenu.

    ID is opposed by science because IT IS NOT SCIENCE! It is religious dogmatism dressed in scientific language, but with no scientific foundation at all. Evolutionary biology, on the other hand, constitutes one of humanity’s greatest intellectual accomplishments and is one of the shining jewels of science. Evolution is backed by evidence – mountains of it from independent fields such as biology, psychology, neuroscience, geology, anthropology, biochemistry, mathematics, artificial life computer science, etc.

    Christianity and every other world religion that claims to have all the big answers are successful mythologies. That’s all.

  19. thestandardblog

    I agree completely.

    You know, as I was walking out of the theater, a couple of guys behind me started talking about how Richard Dawkins “endorsed” Intelligent Design in reference to his quote towards the end about a higher civilization seeding life on earth.
    I had half a mind to turn around and tell them that, no, Richard Dawkins does not support ID nor does he agree with it. He only gave Stein a slightly possible example of how a designer could be possible because Stein ASKED him to.

    Yeah, people make me mad. But thanks for posting this. :]

  20. I mostly knew Stein from his work on his game show and its only after this movie came into the spot light that I started to learn about his other side.

    You are right in a lot of your point. ID is not science and there is no reason that scientists should even have to discuss it. I am going to download a copy of the movie once its up on the torrent sites. Like you, I don’t want to support the film in anyway but I would like to have seen it so I can comment further on it.

  21. I mostly knew Stein from his work on his game show and its only after this movie came into the spot light that I started to learn about his other side.

    You are right in a lot of your point. ID is not science and there is no reason that scientists should even have to discuss it. I am going to download a copy of the movie once its up on the torrent sites. Like you, I don’t want to support the film in anyway but I would like to have seen it so I can comment further on it.

  22. L Ron Brown,

    As usual, you have a grasp of the definition of the dogmatism but you lack the honesty to apply it to your own atheistic beliefs.

    ID is only NOT science if you demand that science be godless by definition.

    And StandardBlog,

    You apologetics for Dawkins are misleading. He said that he would find research into panspermia “exciting.” He wasn’t just throwing Stein a bone.

    Dawkins makes my job sooooo easy.

    –Sirius Knott

  23. Knott, ID is not science because it is not a result of verifiable experiments, it cannot make predictions, and it has no basis in anything resembling the “scientific method”.

    Its entire foundation is “this is too hard to explain with evolution, a designer must have done it.”

  24. Knott, ID is not science because it is not a result of verifiable experiments, it cannot make predictions, and it has no basis in anything resembling the “scientific method”.

    Its entire foundation is “this is too hard to explain with evolution, a designer must have done it.”

  25. Thatched that straw man together pretty quickly, didn’t you? I hope you weren’t too attatched.

    The entire foundation of ID is NOT that it’s too hard for evolution to explain so it must have been designed. It is that biology bears evidence of having been designed [a signature of irreducible complexity, ascendencies of information and homologous design modules/concepts, if you will] that evolution [as a wholly natural process requiring no designer] cannot account for; therefore, even if evolution is true, there are elements of biology and other areas of science which cannot [let’s read the word again: CANNOT] be accounted for by evolution, which by their aforementioned signature bear testimony of design.

    Evolution has nothing to do with the scientific method either. It is not observable, repeatable or testable. It is an unfalsifiable tautology. A flawed belief system of a man who had no idea just how complex the cell actually was.

    keep dreaming, alice.

    –Sirius Knott

  26. Sirius,

    Evolution is very testable and falsifiable. You really should learn what the theory is about before you start to criticize it.

    First of all, i am so sick of this irreducible complexity argument being leveled against evolution. We have tones of examples of complex behaviour coming out of simple rules for interaction. Just take a look at the game of life. There is a whole emergent branch of science on the concept of emergent complexity. Function like the eye can easily come from evolution. If you want to claim that it cannot, please show me why. Just because you don’t understand it does not mean it is not possible.

    Now, about falsifying evolution. that is quite easy. Simply look at the branching heriarcy of life and find one example of something making a sudden jump between the branches. Find one mammal with plant cellular structures and you have falsified the theory.

    Also, what homogeneous design are you talking about? We see branching biology as you would expect from a bottom up construction of life. Evolution has everything to do with the scientific method. It has been tested repeatedly and every time with stood those tests. There is a reason millions of scientists believe it to be true.

    “A flawed belief system of a man who had no idea just how complex the cell actually was.” We have every idea how complex it actually is.

  27. Sirius,

    Evolution is very testable and falsifiable. You really should learn what the theory is about before you start to criticize it.

    First of all, i am so sick of this irreducible complexity argument being leveled against evolution. We have tones of examples of complex behaviour coming out of simple rules for interaction. Just take a look at the game of life. There is a whole emergent branch of science on the concept of emergent complexity. Function like the eye can easily come from evolution. If you want to claim that it cannot, please show me why. Just because you don’t understand it does not mean it is not possible.

    Now, about falsifying evolution. that is quite easy. Simply look at the branching heriarcy of life and find one example of something making a sudden jump between the branches. Find one mammal with plant cellular structures and you have falsified the theory.

    Also, what homogeneous design are you talking about? We see branching biology as you would expect from a bottom up construction of life. Evolution has everything to do with the scientific method. It has been tested repeatedly and every time with stood those tests. There is a reason millions of scientists believe it to be true.

    “A flawed belief system of a man who had no idea just how complex the cell actually was.” We have every idea how complex it actually is.

  28. The balloon goes up!

    How is evolution falsifiable? Your example is utter bunk. No one’s proposing such a thing as a mammal with plant cellular structures, yet how would this falsify evolution? Can you only appeal to the rediculous instead of to the reasonable to falsify this tautology?

    How is evolution testable? How has it been tested?

    I shall no doubt find your answer quite entertaining!

    I’ve read Origins. It’s filed on my shelf under science fiction.

    I wonder if you have a grasp of either darwin’s theory of of irreducible complexity. You’re certainly not bothering to address it seriously. You keeping to the party line, comrade. Denialism followed by some version of the old faithful rejoinder, No, YOU prove it’s not! I understand irreducible complexity and the utter complexity of the cell; that’s why I know that Darwin’s dream is impossible.

    You see branching biology in textbook illustrations not in the fossil record nor in living species; instead each creature reproduces after its own kind with variations within that kind, and appears full-blown in the fossil record as such with no record of intermediate forms as we would expect from the creation model.

    You guys might as well be screaming, THERE IS NO SCIENCE BUT NATURALISM AND DARWIN IS ITS PROPHET!”

    To quote my mentor: “I have not encountered such faith before; no, not in all Israel!”

    –Sirius Knott

  29. Sirius, you need to realize a few things and I’m going to be civil as I can be.

    First is that you are holding evolutionary biology to be indelibly linked to Charles Darwin, as though Origin of the Species were the be all and end all of the theory. It’s not, although it IS the launching point. You need to consider far more than that one book (at the very least, Darwin’s others such as the Descent of Man). Evolutionary biology has moved FAR beyond what Darwin proposed, and every discovery has lined up perfectly.

    Secondly, evolution is very falsifiable with something very simple: all that would have to happen is for a fossil of an animal to show up in the wrong time period or location. As British scientist J.B.S. Haldane, when asked what would constitute evidence against evolution, famously said, “Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian.”

    Thirdly, I’m fully aware of irreducible complexity and it’s an idea that only exists in anti-evolution circles because its basis is to look at something and, if no method of evolution is CURRENTLY known, call it “irreducibly complex”. The eye was an example for the longest time because of Darwin’s writings, half recalled by the ID crowd: “To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.”

    Unfortunately, he then explains just how that happens. To this day there is only one example of anything that resembles irreducible complexity, the flagellar motor. But even that is a poor example because it’s on such a small scale. That irreducible complexity has never been exhibited period, and at this point cannot even be argued at higher-level organisms speaks volumes.

    This is why we have problems with “Intelligent Design”: its entire theory builds upon ignorance. To say something “had” to be designed or “exhibits traits of design” is another way of saying that we cannot figure out how it evolved.

    Yet the bedrock of science IS not knowing how something happened, and trying to find out how it did. Thus far every supposed piece of evidence to knock down evolution, after enough research and study, turned out to fit just fine with Darwin’s model.

    It’s sort of like California’s “sailing stones”. No one knew how they moved, but they simply had to because the trails were there, we knew they moved.

    A proponent of Intelligent Design would look at that and say “there is no logical explanation for how those rocks moved, clearly an Intelligent Mover did it”. Scientists had no idea how, but rather than seeing ignorance as defeat, they saw it as a challenge, and eventually the mystery was solved.

    Am I getting through to you?

  30. Sirius, you need to realize a few things and I’m going to be civil as I can be.

    First is that you are holding evolutionary biology to be indelibly linked to Charles Darwin, as though Origin of the Species were the be all and end all of the theory. It’s not, although it IS the launching point. You need to consider far more than that one book (at the very least, Darwin’s others such as the Descent of Man). Evolutionary biology has moved FAR beyond what Darwin proposed, and every discovery has lined up perfectly.

    Secondly, evolution is very falsifiable with something very simple: all that would have to happen is for a fossil of an animal to show up in the wrong time period or location. As British scientist J.B.S. Haldane, when asked what would constitute evidence against evolution, famously said, “Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian.”

    Thirdly, I’m fully aware of irreducible complexity and it’s an idea that only exists in anti-evolution circles because its basis is to look at something and, if no method of evolution is CURRENTLY known, call it “irreducibly complex”. The eye was an example for the longest time because of Darwin’s writings, half recalled by the ID crowd: “To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.”

    Unfortunately, he then explains just how that happens. To this day there is only one example of anything that resembles irreducible complexity, the flagellar motor. But even that is a poor example because it’s on such a small scale. That irreducible complexity has never been exhibited period, and at this point cannot even be argued at higher-level organisms speaks volumes.

    This is why we have problems with “Intelligent Design”: its entire theory builds upon ignorance. To say something “had” to be designed or “exhibits traits of design” is another way of saying that we cannot figure out how it evolved.

    Yet the bedrock of science IS not knowing how something happened, and trying to find out how it did. Thus far every supposed piece of evidence to knock down evolution, after enough research and study, turned out to fit just fine with Darwin’s model.

    It’s sort of like California’s “sailing stones”. No one knew how they moved, but they simply had to because the trails were there, we knew they moved.

    A proponent of Intelligent Design would look at that and say “there is no logical explanation for how those rocks moved, clearly an Intelligent Mover did it”. Scientists had no idea how, but rather than seeing ignorance as defeat, they saw it as a challenge, and eventually the mystery was solved.

    Am I getting through to you?

  31. Sirius,

    My example is not bunk. The theory of evolution predicts a branching hierarchy of life which grows as time progresses. What I was trying to illustrate to you, in an extreme cases example, is that if you can find a single organism with characteristics from two distinct branches you will have falsified evolution. Such an example has never been found. That is one example on how you can test the theory.

    We also see this branching structure in modern life and in the fossil record. Your claim that we do not is completely false. There are literally thousands of transitional forms.

    You also did not address my question. You say that the cell is too complex to have formed through natural means. Prove it. Hell, show some sort of model calculation.

  32. Sirius,

    My example is not bunk. The theory of evolution predicts a branching hierarchy of life which grows as time progresses. What I was trying to illustrate to you, in an extreme cases example, is that if you can find a single organism with characteristics from two distinct branches you will have falsified evolution. Such an example has never been found. That is one example on how you can test the theory.

    We also see this branching structure in modern life and in the fossil record. Your claim that we do not is completely false. There are literally thousands of transitional forms.

    You also did not address my question. You say that the cell is too complex to have formed through natural means. Prove it. Hell, show some sort of model calculation.

  33. I read Richard Dawkins’ blog entry about this movie. I wish I could remember the link, but it was a pretty good read. He even did go see a screening of the movie, so I think it’s safe to say that he didn’t just think it was bunk; he knew it was bunk.

    Also, Sirius seems to be quick with the veiled insults, which makes me wonder if he (she?) has a leg to stand on. Generally speaking, people who know what they’re talking about don’t have to result to ad hominem arguments to prove their point.

  34. I read Richard Dawkins’ blog entry about this movie. I wish I could remember the link, but it was a pretty good read. He even did go see a screening of the movie, so I think it’s safe to say that he didn’t just think it was bunk; he knew it was bunk.

    Also, Sirius seems to be quick with the veiled insults, which makes me wonder if he (she?) has a leg to stand on. Generally speaking, people who know what they’re talking about don’t have to result to ad hominem arguments to prove their point.

  35. Is there any possibility that the tag “Sirius Knott” is meant to be read “Serious? NOT!”

    Anyway … Sirius, you’re doing a great job of illustrating my point about believers who waste time arguing sub-points instead of real belief.

    In what way do you expect for this argument EVER to be fruit-producing?

  36. Is there any possibility that the tag “Sirius Knott” is meant to be read “Serious? NOT!”

    Anyway … Sirius, you’re doing a great job of illustrating my point about believers who waste time arguing sub-points instead of real belief.

    In what way do you expect for this argument EVER to be fruit-producing?

  37. Balloonman,

    That precious tree of life diagram your so fond of is merely a drawing. The fossil record, when the data is collated, shows no such elegant braching heirarchy. Instead it shows basically the same phyla, families et cetera that we have today when we observe the natural world. The only links in those chains are in your preconceptions.

    As for Darwin’s eye, he didn’t explain how the eye developed. He speculated. It’s yet to be proven. In fact, squid’s eye makes utter nonsense of it. It appears right smack in the Cambrian fully developed with no sign of transitory steps preceding it.

    As for your supposed example of falsifiability, I’ll take it that you mean a rabbit in the Cambrian or some other “pre-rabbit fossil layer” since no biological fossils exist in the pre-Cambrian. You forget that fossils aren’t dated by the rocks; rocks are dated by the fossils. If they found a rabbit, they’d date it appropriately.

    Also, I’ve read everybody else’s stuff… Dawkins, Hitchens and other fictional masters. I’m fond of pointing out that Darwin’s natural selection isn’t the same as Dawkins.

    Cody, Dawkins blog was called Lying For Jesus, which title betrays his anti-religios bias and that set of anti-Christian blinders he has on. He can’t see this as anything except Chritianity versus atheistic evolutionary science. He fails to note the film’s Judaism worldview.

    Also, you atheists are always quick to hypocritically point out ad hominem, but you lace your own propaganda with the same.

    Wickle, you’re not helping. The answer to your first question is no. The answer to your next comment is that you may have missed the point. I might add that your objection could be applied to you. I’ll be happy to answer the last question:

    I merely level the playing field, my friend. They say it’s faith versus science. I show it for the lie it is. I do NOT expect to argue anyone into the faith. I merely expect to show them it is a reasonable faith, whether they reject it or accept it. Never forget that God’s method is men; they cannot receive the truth unless revelation is given them, but oftimes it is through men that revelation comes. Why else do we witness?

    I find these sorts of discussions allow me to stretch a bit. I find objections I’ve never heard before and must seek wisdom on the matter. I do not argue for the sake of argument, but I daresay we Christians have a better reason for argument than atheists.

    For example: http://siriusknotts.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/why-darwinists-argue/

    —Sirius Knott

  38. Sirius, this argument is clearly going to go no where. Your statements about how the fossil record does not support the theory of evolution is flat out wrong. You have obviously seen way to many of the Christian science propaganda and have not looked at the evidence for yourself.

    And no, by my example I meant if you could find a mammal that has characteristics from a completely different branch (like plant life for example), that that would falsify evolution.

  39. Sirius, this argument is clearly going to go no where. Your statements about how the fossil record does not support the theory of evolution is flat out wrong. You have obviously seen way to many of the Christian science propaganda and have not looked at the evidence for yourself.

    And no, by my example I meant if you could find a mammal that has characteristics from a completely different branch (like plant life for example), that that would falsify evolution.

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