The more things change, the more they stay the same

In a Pew poll, 58% of Americans support taking military action against Iran to stop them from getting nukes.

Now, as is always the case with polls, it is kinda critical to look at the poll question itself:

The reason this is… a bit on the hedgy side is that it doesn’t take into account whether the person believes Iran is actively trying to get nuclear weapons. It’s sort of like asking if you support having your next door neighbor arrested if you find out they’re raping children. Yes, sure, you probably do, but chances are you’re fairly confident that the 85 year old grandma over there is doing no such thing. Undoubtedly this poll will turn into “public supports taking military action against Iran”, helpfully neglecting the rather large “if” that’s thrown on there.

The second question is equally bad because it, again, makes some assumptions. The most egregious of which is that Israel would only attack Iran if they were actively developing nuclear weapons. Few liberals out there think it’s all right for Iran to be holding nuclear weapons, but we also don’t think it’s going to come to that. Worse, we’re concerned that Israel will jump the gun, so to speak, and unleash hell on Iran in an aggressive action, which we emphatically do not support.

But again, these polls will be used to show that Americans at least somewhat support Israel attacking Iran, or that most support the US directly doing it, when the questions weren’t exactly fair.

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19 responses to “The more things change, the more they stay the same

  1. LOL. Do you actually, honestly think Iran is not developing nuclear weapons?  And you want to be taken seriously?

    “The most egregious of which is that Israel would only attack Iran if they were actively developing nuclear weapons.”

    No. If Israel *believes* Iran is developing those weapons, which is different. Iran, which openly threatens Israel, who probably has much better intel than you.  Iran’s free to open their borders to inspection as soon as they want to stop being perceived as a threat.

    “Worse, we’re concerned that Israel will jump the gun, so to speak, and unleash hell on Iran in an aggressive action, which we emphatically do not support.”

    Good. Hopefully there’s still one country willing to do something about evil.

    The questions are fair. Get you head out of the sand. Iran’s up to no good.

  2. See, this is the kind of BS I’m talking about.  Iraq invaded Kuwait, and was repelled. The ceasefire was unambiguous about disclosing and documenting the disposition of Iraq’s weapons programs.  It doesn’t matter whether we *found* them — Saddam was on the hook to disclose.

    But if you really feel this way, then I’m sure you were saying all the same things back in 1998 when Senate Democrats were more concerned about the threat of Iraq, only three years before 9/11.

  3. The point your missing, Henry, is that Iran, like it or not, is a separate, sovereign nation.  It doesn’t *have* to do anything if it doesn’t want to.  It can allow, or kick out, anyone it wishes from within its own borders.

    The moment Israel does anything against Iran, it’s Israel declaring war on Iran.  If Iran makes the first move, then, and only then, does Israel have the right to defend itself.  Until then, Israel is being a frigging bully and if it doesn’t stop, the world should start sanctioning Israel too.

    Better yet, sanction the entire ME; let them solve their own problems, and if they can’t but instead blow one another up, well, that’s their deal.

    • “The moment Israel does anything against Iran, it’s Israel declaring war on Iran.”

      I hate to burst your bubble, but sometimes the good guys are the ones declaring war.  Peace is not an end unto itself, and often it must be traded for ideals that are.  A nuclear Iran is an existential threat to Israel.

      “If Iran makes the first move, then, and only then, does Israel have the right to defend itself.”

      Where on earth do you guys come up with nonsense like that?  Israel has the right to defend itself whenever it thinks such action is necessary, and there is NO expectation that they wait until after a nuclear strike.

      • “I hate to burst your bubble, but sometimes the good guys are the ones
        declaring war.  Peace is not an end unto itself, and often it must be
        traded for ideals that are.  A nuclear Iran is an existential threat to
        Israel.”

        Sorry to burst yours, but unprovoked attacks are NEVER right, no matter who does them. 

        A nuclear USA is existential to the whole world, but you don’t see people declaring war on the US for their nuclear programs, do you?  (And I’m not talking terrorists here, but actual countries making real proclamations of war.)

        “Where on earth do you guys come up with nonsense like that?  Israel has
        the right to defend itself whenever it thinks such action is necessary,
        and there is NO expectation that they wait until after a nuclear strike.”

        Sorry, no they don’t.  The ONLY time Israel, or anyone, has the right to defend themselves is if they need to defend themselves.  A preemptive strike against Iran by Israel means they are NO different than Iran doing the same to Israel, and Israel should be treated just as we’d treat Iran for doing the same.

        Personally, I’m tired of the Spoiled Child Israel thinking it can do whatever it wants and I think it’s time the world start to sanction Israel for its crimes against people.

      • “unprovoked attacks are NEVER right, no matter who does them.”

        “Unprovoked”?  Have you been living under a rock?

        Right is right, and sometimes that includes striking first.

        “A preemptive strike against Iran by Israel means they are NO different than Iran doing the same to Israel, and Israel should be treated just as we’d treat Iran for doing the same.”

        It’s very different.  Israel is not going to use nukes.  And even if you disagree with the terms, such actions are in complete alignment with official American policy regarding a nuclear Iran.

        There is no rising above morality.  Israel can coexist with everyone else, and she does not have the luxury of waiting for nations who can’t coexist with her to make the first move.

        You’re spineless.  There are such things as right and wrong, good and evil. Iran wants to strike Israel even though it doesn’t need to. Israel doesn’t want to strike Iran, but it will if it must.  Only fools see the two as equivalent.

      •  “”Unprovoked”?  Have you been living under a rock?” 

        Unless the news has suddenly changed and Iran is sending troops to it’s borders, or is harassing Israelis across its border or something similar, yes, it’d be unprovoked.  Right now Iran is all talk and saber rattling.  It’s like two guys facing each other down and smack-talking each other; doesn’t mean a damn thing until one of them swings.

        “Right is right, and sometimes that includes striking first.”

        And until Iran does something to WARRANT a first strike, sorry, Israel is in for tough $hit.

        “It’s very different.  Israel is not going to use nukes.”

        No proof Iran would use them, either.  NONE.  Iran may be arrogant, it may be inflamatory, and it’s barbaric, but they’re not stupid.

        “And even if
        you disagree with the terms, such actions are in complete alignment with
        official American policy regarding a nuclear Iran.”

        Thank Gods I don’t live in the US, but a semi-sensible country like Canada who despite our belief Israel has a right to exist, they do NOT have the unilateral right to attack other countries, either.

        “There is no rising above morality.  Israel can coexist with everyone
        else,”

        BULL-FRIGGIN-CRAP and if you believe that where have YOU been living?  Israel is the smartmouth kid in the bully playground that doesn’t know when to STFU.

        “…and she does not have the luxury of waiting for nations who can’t
        coexist with her to make the first move.” 

        The entire region has been back and forth so long and has so many frigging issues I’m of the opinion let them blow themselves to hell and maybe the survivors will finally get a clue and start over and behave.  But the rest of the world should NOT step in to defend EITHER Israel or any other country Israel would go after.  NEITHER side wants to live in peace in that region (outside of it though both sides seem to have no problems, thus far, getting along).  Either let themselves blow one another up, or wall the entire friggin place, put peacekeepers in with shoot-to-kill orders whoever breaks the wall – Israeli or Palestinian/Muslim – and THEN the world has a right to say “Enough”.

        “You’re spineless.”

        Not spineless, just tired of the BS and how everyone kowtows to “poor, poor Israel” or “poor, poor Palestine” and how their issues spread out over the entire region.

        “There are such things as right and wrong, good and
        evil. Iran wants to strike Israel even though it doesn’t need to.
        Israel doesn’t want to strike Iran, but it will if it must.  Only fools
        see the two as equivalent.”

        Yep, and so far you are NOT on the side of right in this wrong, but totally wrong, IMO.  You don’t see that, fine, that’s your deal and your blindness.  If Iran wanted to strike Israel, don’t you think it would have by now?  Come ON, you can’t be that stupid to believe all the smack talk coming from Iran is more than just that?

        The only fool I see is you, who just doesn’t seem to get it.

        I don’t see them equivalent, I see both countries as f-ed up places that need to stop acting like fricking children and grow the hell up before they instigate something that destroys the friggin’ planet.

  4. “Unless the news has suddenly changed and Iran is sending troops to it’s borders, or is harassing Israelis across its border or something similar, yes, it’d be unprovoked.”

    You do know who Hezbollah is, don’t you? And who funds it?
     
    “It’s like two guys facing each other down and smack-talking each other; doesn’t mean a damn thing until one of them swings.”

    No, one of those guys is building a nuclear weapon in his basement.  And the other guy has no first-strike survival capability.

    “And until Iran does something to WARRANT a first strike, sorry, Israel is in for tough $hit.”

    In Israel, Iran building nuclear weapons does warrant a strike.  Maybe their survival is just a little more important to them than it is to you.

    “Israel is the smartmouth kid in the bully playground that doesn’t know when to STFU.”

    I’m trying to remember the last time Israel promised to wipe another country off the map.  Like Iran has done. While constructing nuclear weapons.

    “If Iran wanted to strike Israel, don’t you think it would have by now?”

    No, I think they feel a sense of deterrence because of Israel’s alliance with us. But I do think they do what they can to wage a silent war against Israel all the time.

    In Israel, gays serve in the military.  In Iran, gays are hanged.  But it’s so politically incorrect to ever say anything’s got the moral high ground over an Islamic state, huh?

    •   “You do know who Hezbollah is, don’t you? And who funds it?”

      Yep and yep; your point?
        “No, one of those guys is building a nuclear weapon in his basement.  And the other guy has no first-strike survival capability.”

      Except that guy one is building the bomb, while guy two already HAS it, and the backing of the most armed nation on the friggin’ planet.  Again, your point?  So far it’s just a dik measuring contest.

      “In Israel, Iran building nuclear weapons does warrant a strike. 
      Maybe their survival is just a little more important to them than it is
      to you.”

      Again, it does not warrant first strike.  Iran COULD be doing it for the reasons they say.  Until you have PROOF they plan to build a bomb and use it against someone, then any sort of attack on Iran just makes that nation the aggressor and the instigator of the third-frigging world war.

      “I’m trying to remember the last time Israel promised to wipe another
      country off the map.  Like Iran has done. While constructing nuclear
      weapons.”

      It hasn’t… except, wait, it’s threatening to attack Iran NOW for smack-talking.  And it already HAS the nukes.  And backing of the US.  Sorry, looks like Israel can’t pull the moral highground on this, either.

      “No, I think they feel a sense of deterrence because of Israel’s
      alliance with us.”

      Well on that we agree, plus their own allies would drop them so fast their heads would spin.  Russia nor China want a war; hell, the world can’t handle a war right now.

      “But I do think they do what they can to wage a silent
      war against Israel all the time.”

      Again, something we agree with; holy crap, the odds!

      “In Israel, gays serve in the military.  In Iran, gays are
      hanged.”

      In the US, until recently, Gays weren’t even ACKNOWLEDGED in the military, so what?  If the Republicans get in office, they’ve already stated they will overturn the removal of DADT and reinstate it.  So the US has no room to friggin’ talk about “gay rights” in the military.

      “But it’s so politically incorrect to ever say anything’s got
      the moral high ground over an Islamic state, huh?””

      Where did I say that?

      Perhaps you have a reading issue:  BOTH NATIONS are the problem, BOTH need to stop being dikheads and BOTH need to grow the F-up.  I hold Israel to a higher standard because they’re SUPPOSED to be more modern, more enlightened and more accepting.  Except they’re not.  They’re actually dropping down to the level of Iran, and worse.  They HAVE the backing, they HAVE the tech to beat any nation there really in the ground if that nation so much farted on them wrong.  They know it, and they friggin’ flaunt it.  THAT is why I have issues with Israel.

      With Iran, I expect them to be bigoted, backward, militant, crazy idiots who think death is the greatest thing ever, especially of martyred.  Which is what they keep pushing Israel to do; Martyr the entire friggin’ nation so the whole region blows up.

      And Israel, and people like you, are falling for it.

      Excuse me if I’d rather NOT see a world war anytime soon, like, the rest of my life.

      • “In Israel, gays serve in the military.  In Iran, gays are hanged.”

        “In the US, until recently, Gays weren’t even ACKNOWLEDGED in the military, so what?  If the Republicans get in office, they’ve already stated they will overturn the removal of DADT and reinstate it.  So the US has no room to friggin’ talk about “gay rights” in the military.”

        While I’m sure this is a very convenient deflection for you, it ignores the evidence that there is no moral equivalency between civilized Israel and medieval Sharia Iran.

      •  “While I’m sure this is a very convenient deflection for you, it ignores
        the evidence that there is no moral equivalency between civilized Israel
        and medieval Sharia Iran.”

        LMFAO!  “Civilized Israel”?!?!  Okay… now I know you’re really off your nut and any further convo is just pointless at this point.

        And since you TOTALLY ignored the point I made – which was that no one from the US has any room to talk about how bad gays may have it elsewhere, especially from the military, since the US can’t even get it’s own “Gay” stuff together and done right – I say, g’day, eh.

  5. “Iran COULD be doing it for the reasons they say.”

    This is the same head-in-the-sand premise of the OP.  Only an IDIOT would believe it, and perhaps a bunch of wusses who need political cover for not taking difficult but appropriate action.

    “Until you have PROOF they plan to build a bomb and use it against someone, then any sort of attack on Iran just makes that nation the aggressor and the instigator of the third-frigging world war.”

    By that definition, anyone with a nuclear program should be afforded the benefit of the doubt until they actually attack someone with a weapon.  That’s a load of garbage.  By that time, Israel would be wiped out.  Western libs need to understand that the Israelis don’t have the luxury of lowering their standards to your level.  I am glad that they are ignoring you, and I hope they act soon enough to be effective.

    •  “This is the same head-in-the-sand premise of the OP.  Only an IDIOT
      would believe it, and perhaps a bunch of wusses who need political cover
      for not taking difficult but appropriate action.”

      Nevertheless, it could be true.  Likely?  Probably not, but even if there’s a slim chance it’s true, going after Iran because it MIGHT make nuke bombs is a clusterphuk waiting to happen.

      “By that definition, anyone with a nuclear program should be afforded the
      benefit of the doubt until they actually attack someone with a weapon. 
      That’s a load of garbage.  By that time, Israel would be wiped out. 
      Western libs need to understand that the Israelis don’t have the luxury
      of lowering their standards to your level.  I am glad that they are
      ignoring you, and I hope they act soon enough to be effective.”

      Well then, glad to know you’re one of those “Give me War!” types.  As it is, I happen to agree that yes, anyone with a nuke program SHOULD be afforded the benefit of the doubt. 

      You seem to forget, that if Iran DID make a nuclear weapon, and DID attack Israel, all the countries that back it would drop them like dirty underwear the instant it happened, because the last they would want is that $hit coming onto them.  At most, Iranian allies would keep out of a conflict that Iran started.  But if Israel attacks first, you know damn well Russia and China will be all for punishing Israel in every way possible, which means punishing the US since the US would march lock-step in with them.

      Seriously, are you THAT blind to seeing how this will play out?

      • I’m reminded of a quote (which I’m both butchering and forget the origin of): the nuclear arms race is like two men standing in a pool of gasoline, with one brandishing three matches and the other five.

      • That only applies to men who don’t want the fire lit.  I would hesitate to project it onto men who believe the fire will earn them six dozen virgins.

      •  Good point.

  6. “going after Iran because it MIGHT make nuke bombs is a clusterphuk waiting to happen.”

    And what words would you use to describe Iran blowing up a nuke over Israel?

    •  In-fucking-sanity tops the list.  And while Iran is batshit loony, I don’t think they’ve reached that much insanity yet. 

      Or did you even see that there are people in Iran who don’t WANT Israel bombed to hell, and would rather Israel not bomb them, too?  Just because the Iranian leadership is cracked, doesn’t mean every citizen is.  Same goes for Israel.

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