Planned Parenthood firebombed in Wisconsin

I’m at a loss for words.

When people like me talk about the dangers of the religious right, this is what I mean. The worst you can say about “militant atheists” is that they act like douchebags and put up obnoxious billboards.

And once again (because it bears repeating) this is violence enacted with political aims intended to cause fear: terrorism.

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22 responses to “Planned Parenthood firebombed in Wisconsin

  1. And yet the person who did this, if caught, will never be tried as a terrorist.  IMO they should be, and with attempted murder as well, despite the clinic being closed. 

    Unless their Muslim, in which case they just might be tried as a terrorist afterall.

  2. Do you know what “spiking a tree” is?  Ever seen a picture of a million dollars worth of SUVs burned down by “environmentalists”?

    And of course your objective attitude toward “the religious right” extends to, say, Islamic “honor” killings, right?

    • 1) I’m pretty sure I’m the guy who pointed out that the only non-9/11 terrorism related deaths in the US since 1999 were from environmental groups.

      2) Of course.

      3) The sign of someone who realizes that they have no defense for something is when they start yapping about other people who are also doing bad things.

    •  1) Yes, I know, and people who do that should be charged, especially if someone is killed from that act.

      2)  No, never saw a million $$ of SUV’s burned, link please.  As it is, again, charge them for destruction of property or whatever else is possible.

      3) Hell yes.  There was a case of honor killing in Ontario, Canada and I hope the entire family goes to jail that was involved in it.  And if we had the death penalty here, and it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt the family did it, then I would say execute them, too.  I don’t see why my tax dollars should keep these people alive for murdering their daughters and second wife just because they were normal teenagers and didn’t follow their supposed “rules”.  If they wanted to enforce their ideas of what’s right and proper, they should have never left their homeland.

      My point was, just because it might be a Christian who firebombed the place, they probably won’t be charged with terrorism at all.  Had it been Muslim, people would be crying out for the law to throw the book at them, if not more.  Are YOU saying it’s okay for Christians to destroy property and put lives at risk all because they have an objection to a medical procedure that could potentially save lives?

  3. “The sign of someone who realizes that they have no defense for something is when they start yapping about other people who are also doing bad things.”

    But according to you, militant atheists aren’t doing bad things.  According to you they’re just putting up obnoxious billboards and acting like douchebags.

    You think I have a problem defending the firebombing of an establishment that murders babies for money?  Really?  Really???

    • To some, there aren’t any babies being “murdered”.  And to some, there are babies that are unfortunately being aborted because of whatever reason.  Until the baby is actually born, it can’t be called murder, else you’re starting a slippery slope to charge every miscarriage, every unintentional loss of a child “murder” and the variances of. 

      Abortion is a woman’s right to CHOOSE, whether you like it or not.

      Until you, and people like you, are willing to put up and deal with the thousands of unwanted kids already out there, who are willing to help the thousands of single moms out there trying to cope with their kid(s), until you’re willing to step up and take in that rape baby when it’s mother can’t emotionally or mentally handle the fact they’re being forced to have that kid, then and ONLY then do you have a say in anything.

      • If a woman CHOOSES to have sex, then that’s a CHOICE that may result in a pregnancy.  After that, the key word is “responsibility.”  What *you* call “choice” is really just the violent, bloody rejection of one’s responsibilities.

        When did I say a raped woman couldn’t get an abortion?

      •  “If
        a woman CHOOSES to have sex, then that’s a CHOICE that may result in a
        pregnancy.  After that, the key word is “responsibility.””

        I agree wholeheartedly, and as such, abortion should NEVER be used as a kind of Birth Control.  Unfortunately, some people do use it that way and if it were up to me, those women would be sterilized somehow.

        “What *you*
        call “choice” is really just the violent, bloody rejection of
        one’s responsibilities.” 

        What I call “choice” is a woman’s right to choose whether to have a child or not depending on the circumstances.  In the end, regardless of what you or I think, it’s not your business, or mine, what a woman chooses.  If she chooses to take responsibility, great.  If she chooses not to, not our business.  And who is to say an abortion is NOT being responsible?  You cannot and will not stop people from having sex; getting pregnant is a risk of that act.  Abortions, then, should be a choice, an option available to deal with that risk if needed.

        “When did I say a raped woman couldn’t get an abortion?”

        I didn’t say you did say so but you realize that denying a woman’s right to get an abortion IS effectively saying she HAS to have a rapists child?

        And you never answered my question: if you take Abortion out of the picture, are you personally willing to step up and take care of the thousands of kids who will suddenly be in the world, had by mothers who didn’t want them to begin with, pressuring an already over-pressured child welfare system?  Will you personally see that any mothers who are forced to have these kids, and who keep them because the system won’t take them, have jobs, their kids taken care of, have money for said kids, education and so on?  What are YOU willing to take responsibility for, since the people against abortion are forcing this situation on women?

  4. “abortion should NEVER be used as a kind of Birth Control. Unfortunately, some people do use it that way and if it were up to me, those women would be sterilized somehow.”

    Some?  The vast, vast majority of abortions are performed as a birth control measure.  And most pro life advocates approve of abortion as a medical procedure to protect the health or life of the mother.

    “If she chooses to take responsibility, great.  If she chooses not to, not our business.”

    Protecting lives is everyone’s business, including the government’s.

    “denying a woman’s right to get an abortion IS effectively saying she HAS to have a rapists child?”

    Which is why a rape victim should have the choice.  But it’s a choice of great gravity with the potential to end an innocent human life, and the guilt of one parent doesn’t change that fact.

    “if you take Abortion out of the picture, are you personally willing to step up and take care of the thousands of kids who will suddenly be in the world, had by mothers who didn’t want them to begin with, pressuring an already over-pressured child welfare system?”

    LOL. I believe in a moral code which says nearly all of this is wrong, and yet in another post you equate that morality with the Taliban.

    I don’t buy your premise that children are a burden on society, and I am prepared to hold parents accountable. So yes, I do have a plan for those children, but it’s not more welfare.

    I think it’s funny how you’ll ask anyone and everyone to sacrifice, but God forbid we should demand that parents make the sacrifices necessary to raise their own kids.

    •  “Some?  The vast, vast majority of abortions are performed as a birth
      control measure.  And most pro life advocates approve of abortion as a
      medical procedure to protect the health or life of the mother.”

      Hmn… maybe it’s like that in the US, but it’s not that way here in Canada.  Although I have read and heard from pro-lifers themselves who say it doesn’t matter what happens to the mother, so long as that baby lives!

      “Protecting lives is everyone’s business, including the government’s.”

      Sure it is, I agree.  Except that until a certain point, that fetus inside the mother isn’t exactly something that has a life.  Once it’s viable outside the mother’s body, then it’s a whole new ball game.  Until that point…

      “Which is why a rape victim should have the choice.  But it’s a choice of
      great gravity with the potential to end an innocent human life, and the
      guilt of one parent doesn’t change that fact.”

      So you didn’t even read what I said.  Congrats.  But, as to what YOU’VE said…

      I’m not saying it’s not a grave choice, or important choice.  And likely, a woman who says she wants to terminate the pregnancy resulting from a rape, they aren’t ending a human life, they’re ending the beginning stages of cell development that can LEAD to a human infant. 

      And I highly doubt there would be any guilt at all on the mother’s side for terminating that pregnancy.

      “LOL. I believe in a moral code which says nearly all of this is wrong,
      and yet in another post you equate that morality with the Taliban.”

      Do I?  Where do I do this?  Link or repost please.

      “I don’t buy your premise that children are a burden on society, and I
      am prepared to hold parents accountable. So yes, I do have a plan for
      those children, but it’s not more welfare.”

      I don’t care if you don’t buy it or not, but children in certain situations ARE a burden on society.  Just because you don’t see it doesn’t make it not true.

      “I think it’s funny how you’ll ask anyone and everyone to sacrifice,
      but God forbid we should demand that parents make the sacrifices
      necessary to raise their own kids.”

      Where the Hell do you get THAT idea from?  I think that the way today’s world is, some parents don’t sacrifice enough.  But I also think that society doesn’t give parents enough of a break and sometimes society is a parent’s worst friggin enemy because it’s turned kids into spoiled brats like we’ve never seen.  It’s all based on the situation, the family and the kids.

  5. I do suspect that El Senor Galt has returned to the Razor, this time around as someone named “Henry”.

    •  Quite possibly.

      • fritobaggins

        There are certain similarities of style, tone, and dogma.  BTW, Keth, I don’t weigh in frequently but I do read and enjoy your contributions.  And Hanlon’s, let me not leave out.

      •  I don’t normally say much either really, unless someone rubs me the wrong way.  But I do love reading the blog here and the varied opinions, no matter whose they are.

        Thanks, Frito. 🙂

  6. “Although I have read and heard from pro-lifers themselves who say it doesn’t matter what happens to the mother, so long as that baby lives!”

    Got any links to this?  In real life?

    “And likely, a woman who says she wants to terminate the pregnancy resulting from a rape, they aren’t ending a human life, they’re ending the beginning stages of cell development that can LEAD to a human infant.”

    So no harm in showing her the ultrasound, right? I mean, it’s just tissue, after all.

    “children in certain situations ARE a burden on society.  Just because you don’t see it doesn’t make it not true.”

    Disease is a burden on society. Famine is a burden on society. Earthquakes are a burden on society.

    Children *are* society.  Children are the product and purpose of society.  Are you really going to argue that society is a burden on society?

    I’m happy to agree with you that some irresponsible “parents” burden the rest of us by not providing for their own children, but I’ve already stated that I’m willing to hold them accountable.  Weren’t you saying something about sterilizing them???

    •  “Got any links to this?  In real life?” 

      The moment you start producing your links, I’ll start producing mine.

      “So no harm in showing her the ultrasound, right? I mean, it’s just tissue, after all.”

      Actually, I would only partly agree.  There is harm in that it’s emotional blackmail to try and force a woman to “reconsider” because it’s an “OMGBABY!”  At the same time, if a woman is firmly decided, no, there is no issue. 

      “Disease is a burden on society. Famine is a burden on society. Earthquakes are a burden on society.”

      Yep, yep, and yep; your point?

      “Children *are* society.  Children are the product and purpose of
      society.  Are you really going to argue that society is a burden on
      society?”

      Yes, I am.  As much as they are society, they are also a burden.  The moment you have a child in your life it is ten times harder to live, ten times harder to further yourself, ten times harder to sometimes succeed in anything (depending on your purpose/goals in life) and hell, it’s ten times harder to do anything really. 

      See, you’re making it sound like I think it’s a bad thing.  But I don’t.  Kids are a worthwhile burden; as you said, they’re society, they are the “next” generation.  I have a niece, I love her dearly, but yes, she’s a burden to my brother and sister-in-law.  Some burden’s are good, some are not.  Kids are a good burden.

      “I’m happy to agree with you that some irresponsible “parents” burden
      the rest of us by not providing for their own children, but I’ve already
      stated that I’m willing to hold them accountable.  Weren’t you saying
      something about sterilizing them???”

      Yep, and I still believe that.  If these so called parents cannot care for their kids after a certain age where they should know better, if they want to be able to continue to have kids, then they should go to parent/child education classes and whatever else is needed to teach them to get a few clues.  If they don’t, then sorry, no more kids for you.  Kids are NOT a right, they’re a privilege.  If you can’t take care of them, why the hell should I be forking over cash to help take care of them?  If I want to help take care of kids, I’ll have my own.

      • “Yes, I am.  As much as they are society, they are also a burden.  The moment you have a child in your life it is ten times harder to live, ten times harder to further yourself, ten times harder to sometimes succeed in anything (depending on your purpose/goals in life) and hell, it’s ten times harder to do anything really.”

        I hear you pointing out how parenthood is work for a parent.  I’m not seeing how that translates to a “burden on society” unless you’re planning to excuse parents from their responsibilities and transfer them onto everyone else. 

        I don’t agree that we should use abortion as birth control for people who think life is too hard. And I say that fully understanding what unplanned children can do to a person’s future — which is why I advocate responsible behavior *before* it comes down to murdering your unborn children.

        And if these are just cells that will someday lead to a human infant, then why should we “NEVER” abort them as a form of birth control, as you say?  Seems like it should be perfectly okay, since they’re not a person yet.  Why are you inconsistent on this???

      •  “I hear you pointing out how parenthood is work for a parent.  I’m not
        seeing how that translates to a “burden on society” unless you’re
        planning to excuse parents from their responsibilities and transfer them
        onto everyone else.”

        It’s work, and in come cases beyond work.  If you’re not seeing it, that’s not my issue.  As I’ve said, why the hell should *I* be paying for YOUR (and not specifically any child you might have; yours as in general) dumbass kid just because the parents are too stupid to care for it?  If I want to do that, I’d have a kid of my own to pay for.  If someone has a kid, it IS their responsibility, that also doesn’t make it any less of a burden.

        “I don’t agree that we should use abortion as birth control for people
        who think life is too hard. And I say that fully understanding what
        unplanned children can do to a person’s future — which is why I
        advocate responsible behavior *before* it comes down to murdering your
        unborn children.”

        I don’t agree that abortion should be used as birth control, either.  But what constitutes a “hard” life?  If someone is living below poverty, can’t make ends me at all or is struggling to, has the crappiest place to life, a total shit job that their next pay could be their eviction notice, and their long time boyfriend screwed off on them, only to find their pregnant?  Yeah, if the woman feels that abortion is necessary because of the problems the kid will just add to an already shitty situation, I’m all for it.

        If it’s little miss wonder girl who can’t keep her legs closed and had an “oops” moment with her third boyfriend in two days, no, no I don’t think abortion is right at all.  Person should have been more responsible, taken “Plan B” or something (like not spread her legs even). 

        I’m all for responsible behavior before the act.

        And until the fetus reaches a certain stage of development, it’s not murder.

        “And if these are just cells that will someday lead to a human infant,
        then why should we “NEVER” abort them as a form of birth control, as you
        say?  Seems like it should be perfectly okay, since they’re not a
        person yet.  Why are you inconsistent on this???”

        I think you’re having a reading misconception again.  I am pretty consistent with what I believe.  But perhaps it needs to be clear; okay.  In that case, here’s my stance:

        Abortion as birth control is not okay. 

        Abortion to terminate the pregnancy of a rape or molestation, okay.

        Abortion for medical reasons mother vs. child survival, okay.

        Abortion because child has medical issues: it depends on the issues.  Severe disability, if the parents believe they can’t handle it, their choice and it should be.  Minor disabilities are not a reason to abort but again, choice. 

        Abortion for eugenic reasons, not okay.

        But even then, in the end, I still think it’s a woman’s choice.  Each situation will depend on the woman, her mental state, physical, social and so on.  If a woman does abort because she slept around and the odds were not in her favor that go around, while I won’t like it, I don’t have a right to demand her to have a child, either.

        No one does.  And that, in the end, is my point.

      • “Abortion as birth control is not okay.”

        Why not? It’s just tissue.

        “Save, legal and rare”

        Why rare? It’s just tissue.

        Why the reservations?

      •  LMAO – reservations?

        Abortion is not okay – because it removes thought from the act of sex.  It has a “Who cares what happens” feel; I don’t like that.  People – both sexes – give up responsibility and I hate that, too.  I believe Abortions should not be like going into a store and picking out whether to have a chocolate bar or bag of chips in a sort of “whatever” attitude.  It has nothing really to do with the kid that could come 9 months later… or rather, yes, it does, because someone with this kind of attitude are the ones who will either not give a crap about their kids and just shove it into “The System”, or abandon it onto parents, or leave it in dumpsters (which IS a crime, IMO).  It “burden’s the system” (see what I did there?) and the rest of us have to pay for it.

        “”Save, legal and rare””

        ??  Where’d I say this, so I can at least find the total sentence (ie context; you know what that means?) this was used in, kthanks.

        This is my personal opinion (do you know what that means?) and, because you REALLY have reading issues…

        ABORTION.  SHOULD.  STILL.  BE.  A.  WOMAN’S.  CHOICE.  And if she makes that choice?  If she makes the choice to treat it as Birth Control?  To have sex and sex and sex and then get knocked up and go “Ooops!  Don’t want that!  ABORT!”

        THAT.  IS.  HER.  CHOICE.  And not my business.  I won’t like it, I won’t agree with it, hell, I’d never make that choice myself, but that’s me, not her.

        The difference between their (you, or these pro-life morons) personal opinion, and mine, is that they want to shove their opinion down everyone else’s throat and make it law.  They want to FORCE their opinions to be accepted by everyone when the issue is none of their business anyway.

        That’s the difference.

  7. “Got any links to this?  In real life?” 
    “The moment you start producing your links, I’ll start producing mine.”

    Like I’m going to prove that the entire internet doesn’t include a single real pro-lifer saying what you claim they say before you’re going to produce a single example of one actually saying it? On second thought, that’s probably correct.  And pretty much exactly what I expected.

    You libs oppose an adversary who exists only in your minds. There are no actual conservatives who believe any of the nonsense you accuse them of believing.

    •  “Like I’m going to prove that the entire internet doesn’t include a
      single real pro-lifer saying what you claim they say before you’re going
      to produce a single example of one actually saying it? On second
      thought, that’s probably correct.  And pretty much exactly what I
      expected.”

      Um… I think you missed my point ENTIRELY; I meant for YOU to start posting links – as I’ve asked you in other places – for YOUR comments for proof of what you’ve said.  Instead you’ve totally ignored it.  So, once you start backing up your claims, I’ll start backing up mine.  You really don’t understand how this whole discussion/debate thing goes, do you?

      “You libs oppose an adversary who exists only in your minds. There are no
      actual conservatives who believe any of the nonsense you accuse them of
      believing.”

      I’ve been involved in online chats with serious right wingers who have said these exact things.  Could they have been BSing?  Likely; or not.  It was said, I didn’t say it was completely true.  But if it was, what does that say of these people, or the right who they make up a part of?

      Of course I’m sure you’ll just say I’m making it up and you’re free to believe that.  Doesn’t make it true though.

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