Depressing graph of the day

I’ll just let it speak for itself. Click for full size.

This is why we need to start spiking taxes. Sorry folks.

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30 responses to “Depressing graph of the day

  1. Only if you think the cure for stagflation is “spiking taxes.”  Because that’s what stagflation looks like — items of real wealth hold their value as the dollar declines due to inflation, profits go up as businesses curtail reinvestment due to reduced demand and greater uncertainty, and wages decline due to labor surpluses of higher unemployment.

    Only a complete idiot would raise taxes in this environment.  And he’s certainly trying.

    Interesting, though, how you libs’ solution to everything is “raise taxes.”  Tell me, what would be a scenario where you would lower taxes, Hanlon?  Can you name one, just for fun?

    • I could be a dick and point out that, aside from taxes being the lowest they’ve been in 50 years, the Bush Tax Cuts were enacted because the economy was doing so well that we deserved to be “rewarded” and yet now the solution is tax cuts again when the economy is bad, throwing into question why CONSERVATIVES always seem to think to cut taxes no matter the economic climate.

      I could do that, but the reality is that taxation should work on a simple system. When things are going well and we aren’t in massive debt, drop taxes. The government doesn’t need as much money, so why pay more than it needs? Trim the fat, no shit, but I think even a simpleton could see that tax cuts when the debt and deficit are spiraling out of control is absolutely idiotic.

      Furthermore, that graph kinda helps poke holes in the nonsense that lowered taxes on the wealthy somehow trickles down to the rest of us. 

      • “why CONSERVATIVES always seem to think to cut taxes no matter the economic climate”
         
        One word: Freedom.
         
        “When things are going well and we aren’t in massive debt, drop taxes.”
         
        Backwards. When things aren’t going well, you lower taxes to encourage investment.  And when things are going well, you adjust rates to optimize revenues — something rather different than just hiking tax rates.
         
        “Trim the fat, no shit”
         
        Everything the federal government does that’s not in the Constitution is “fat.”  And that’s pretty much all of it.
         
        “that graph kinda helps poke holes in the nonsense that lowered taxes on the wealthy somehow trickles down to the rest of us.”
         
        Yes, the liberal nonsense that lowered taxes “trickle down.”
         
        The conservative position is that you can’t consume something before it’s been produced, and that you can’t get a job from a poor man.  That’s what supply-side is — simple reality.  The “trickle down” nonsense was made up by libs.
         

      • “One word: freedom”? What does that even MEAN? You’re defending the notion that lowered taxes are always appropriate whether the economy is good, bad, or neutral because of “freedom”? Now you’re just spouting platitudes and pretending as though they’re well-considered opinions.

        Furthermore, when you lower taxes you don’t encourage investment. Lowered taxes do little but puff up the coffers of the people who get their taxes lowered. Taxes are, currently, the lowest they’ve been since WWII and that’s ESPECIALLY true for the wealthiest. By all accounts the economy should be positively thriving if conservative economic theory were actually valid.

        I’m simply pointing out that there are situations for taxes to go in BOTH directions. Like an intelligent CEO of a company called the United States, we have to balance our income and expenditures. You’re over here claiming that there is never, ever a reason to raise taxes and defending it by saying “freedom”, which frankly doesn’t speak well for said opinion.

      • “”One word: freedom”? What does that even MEAN?”
        It means people work hardest when they keep the rewards for themselves.
        “You’re defending the notion that lowered taxes are always appropriate whether the economy is good, bad, or neutral because of “freedom”?”
        The lowest possible taxes are always good because that means people are getting the maximum value while minimizing the portion of their labor that is being used as slavery to provide for some politically-protected class.  Unless of course you’re partial to the protected classes, and especially if you’re ignorant about the origins of true wealth.
        “Furthermore, when you lower taxes you don’t encourage investment.”
        Investment = savings.  Anything that leaves people with more money to save encourages investment.  “Saving” doesn’t mean the money goes into a vault or a Mason jar.  All jobs are funded with the savings of wealthier men — you know, that whole “trickle down” thing that you never seem to get?
        “Lowered taxes do little but puff up the coffers of the people who get their taxes lowered.”
        And WTF are these “coffers” if not stocks and bonds — investments in ventures that employ people?
        “Taxes are, currently, the lowest they’ve been since WWII and that’s ESPECIALLY true for the wealthiest. By all accounts the economy should be positively thriving if conservative economic theory were actually valid.”
        Low taxes are essential to economic growth.  Period.  Raise taxes, and you will have less growth than you would have had without raising them.  Every time.  Economic growth can occur despite higher taxes, but that is never the same as saying the growth wouldn’t be even better with lower rates.  How much more taxes do you figure this particularly thriving economy can handle right now??? 
        Of course, low taxes are not the only requirement for a thriving economy.  But the answer is not to combine higher taxes on top of our other problems.  Or weren’t you listening, back at the beginning of the year, when Obama was saying that himself?
        “I’m simply pointing out that there are situations for taxes to go in BOTH directions. Like an intelligent CEO of a company called the United States, we have to balance our income and expenditures.”
        A government is not a business.  A country is not a business.  What we need to do is stop this runaway spending.  To put it in terms that even the thickest-headed liberal should understand, the tax base doesn’t have an extra hundred-plus-billion dollars per month just lying around.  It’s unsustainable.
        The government has grown to record size during this recession.  Any idiot should have known revenues would be down.  Why you liberals ever thought this massive expansion of government wouldn’t absolutely cripple the economy is beyond me.  Conservatives anticipated and warned on this before it happened, and right now I can’t imagine anything more monumentally stupid than liberalism.

      • “All jobs are funded from the savings of wealthier men” 

        An excuse to give more money and material wealth to fewer people. Another way the big money interests in this country own us. We are dependent on the wealthy for jobs. Nobody bothers to ask why and if that is the way it should be? How about instead spending my youth working for somebody else, or working for the bank to pay off my culturally mandated debt (school loans, mortgage) I find a way to work for myself? Low cost, low overhead, small business, cottage industries, local economies are the only way the middle class gets back on its feet. Because the traditional paths in this society are really just slavery in disguise. What little money you earn goes back into the system to pay the bank, pay the school, pay the government, pay the landlord. Everyone thinks jobs will fix everything. Jobs. Jobs Jobs. Jobs do several things, reduce your freedom, enslave you to material consumption, keep you occupied so you don’t have to think about how badly you’re getting fucked. Wealth never accumulates in the middle class. It evaporates. Tax policy is just one small piece of the most fraudulent, misguided, and corrupt system ever devised.  

      • “An excuse to give more money and material wealth to fewer people.”

        “Give”?  I’m just thinking they’d rather be able to keep what they’ve earned — what’s been given to them voluntarily by others.

        “Another way the big money interests in this country own us. We are dependent on the wealthy for jobs.”

        No, you are held hostage by government that makes it illegal to go into business for yourself without being able to meet all sorts of expensive requirements.  Existing businesses may favor/support/lobby for these protections, but you have to look to government to see who actually wrote the policies that keep the common man from starting his own businesses.

        “Because the traditional paths in this society are really just slavery in disguise.”

        Only if you’re trying to earn money with manual labor or repetitive processes.  It’s still very profitable to earn a living with your mind, if you’ve got the discipline to train it.

        “Wealth never accumulates in the middle class.”

        Bull. Any ordinary Joe can retire a millionaire by simply contributing to his IRA in his twenties.  The math on that one is a no-brainer.  How much do you contribute to yours?

        “Tax policy is just one small piece of the most fraudulent, misguided, and corrupt system ever devised.”

        That’s because we don’t use tax policy to fund necessary government.  Instead, we use it to rearrange the rewards of other people’s labor.  The ends are corrupt.  Why wouldn’t the means be corrupt as well?

      • “I’m just thinking they’d rather be able to keep what they’ve earned — what’s been given to them voluntarily by others.”
        If there are no reasonable alternatives than its tough to call it voluntary. People have been stripped of the traditional skill sets that allow them to provide for themselves in a meaningful way. 

        “Only if you’re trying to earn money with manual labor or repetitive processes.  It’s still very profitable to earn a living with your mind, if you’ve got the discipline to train it.”

        If you’ve got the money to train it in a socially accepted discipline. I spent two years in college because that’s what good boys and girls are supposed to do and accumulated nearly 30k in debt. Money that should be building my savings(that IRA you spoke so highly of) is instead going to a bank to pay for the most meaningless two years of my life, paying a school that robbed me of time and creativity to teach me nothing of real value. Our cultural mindset and the traditional path for youth has people in their twenties accumulating debt rather than wealth. 

        “That’s because we don’t use tax policy to fund necessary government.”

        Necessary government? I wasnt aware there was such a thing. A long long time ago people lived without the abstract restraints of government and did just fine. Its too bad we lost touch with those ways. 

      • “If there are no reasonable alternatives than its tough to call it voluntary.”

        If a man works because he must eat, that does not make him a slave to his boss.  It makes him a slave to his appetite.  Stop blaming the boss. The boss is not your master — he’s your business partner in your effort to feed your appetite.

        “People have been stripped of the traditional skill sets that allow them to provide for themselves in a meaningful way.”

        The same system allows people with no skills at all to live in great relative comfort compared to people in the third world who still rely on those “skill sets” today.

        “If you’ve got the money to train it in a socially accepted discipline.”

        Even if you don’t have money.  Education is good debt, and student loans always within reach of those with the drive to secure them.  But you do have to choose what to learn.  Liberal arts degrees are worthless.  You need math, science, or business, or you’re not getting an education.

        “I spent two years in college because that’s what good boys and girls are supposed to do and accumulated nearly 30k in debt.”

        Tell me — what is the difference between you and those classmates of yours who went on to make something of themselves?  Do you tell yourself they were just “lucky”?

        “Our cultural mindset and the traditional path for youth has people in their twenties accumulating debt rather than wealth.”

        Well, you’re mainly just supposed to be accumulating experience at that point.  It takes self-discipline to stay on the straight and narrow instead of selling out your future for consumerism.  Wealth is something for the people who’ve forgone a great deal of consumption.

        “Necessary government? I wasnt aware there was such a thing.”

        There was indeed.  It was called “The Constitution.”

      • “Tell me — what is the difference between you and those classmates of yours who went on to make something of themselves?  Do you tell yourself they were just “lucky”?”Nope, not lucky, working hard in fact. Motivated, driven people for sure. But if you ask them why they chose the major they did the answer was invariably “because thats what might pay well” or “thats the only field I’ll make money in”Its a blind drive towards money. Maybe I’m weird but I’m not motivated by paying careers.  I never wanted the money, enough to get by sure, but not the big bucks. I wanted something more. Something worth getting up in the morning for besides money.”Even if you don’t have money.  Education is good debt, and student loans”There is no such thing as good debt. I get an education, incur debt, so that I can get a good job to pay for…..a house? Which is what? more debt. a car? more debt. Call me crazy, I don’t want any of those things. “The same system allows people with no skills at all to live in great relative comfort compared to people in the third world who still rely on those “skill sets” today.”
        I’m not talking third world agriculturalists.I’m talking aborigines. The original people who still live as hunter/gatherers. They need nothing, They want nothing. They just are. Sounds blissful to me. Maybe I should have gone to school for anthropology. :)Anyway, my general point is that education for increased consumerism is pointless, because in the end consumerism is a pointless and meaningless exercise. And that’s what we have in our society. Plenty of affluence and a boat load of meaningless choices. 

      • “But if you ask them why they chose the major they did the answer was invariably “because thats what might pay well” or “thats the only field I’ll make money in” Its a blind drive towards money.”

        It’s not “a blind drive toward money.”  It’s a *focused* drive toward the things the individual wants badly enough to work for — nice home, comforts, security — including careful selection of the job that best matches the individual’s capabilities in order to maximize his ability to achieve those honest ends that used to be called the American Dream.

        They don’t want money — they want to live in comfort, and to set aside enough wealth to provide for themselves in their old age.  Money is just a system of measuring value.  People work hard to receive maximum value for their labor, and you say they’re driven by money. No, they’re driven by the opportunity to receive the most reward for their work.  Work is hard — why shouldn’t they be rewarded?  And if they did the work, why shouldn’t they jealously guard the value they’ve toiled for and sweated out for themselves, and for their loved ones, and for the causes they cherish?

        Well it turns out you’ve provided that answer, too: “Maybe I’m weird but I’m not motivated by paying careers.  I never wanted the money, enough to get by sure, but not the big bucks. I wanted something more. Something worth getting up in the morning for besides money”

        Compared to them, you want to do whatever the hell you desire, and if it doesn’t pay enough, then you’ve got a solution for that, too, don’t you?  By God, you’ll just vote to have a little value shaved off of what the real workers earned, so that you can live in the manner you believe you deserve — even though you’re not willing to actually earn it for yourself like they are.  Talk about ignorance and dishonesty all rolled into one.  It sickens me that people with these dissonant views are voting.  You deserve the misery you’re in, because the truth is you never really understood the purpose of the education you wasted.

      • Hahahaha. I don’t vote. And I don’t collect any entitlements. I passed on unemployment even though I was technically entitled to that check every month. I didn’t feel right taking that money so I never applied. Thanks for assuming I’m a welfare succubus though. (because thats whats wrong with this country…welfare….not the misguided wars, economic imperialism, the destruction of small business. Liberal or Conservative. Its two sides of the same coin. No matter who we elect, the big interests in this country will be taken care of and the masses will be placated with gadgets/movies/celebrity gossip/insert your favorite distraction here. The overseas markets that they want access to will be opened with force, economic or otherwise. They’ve got you sold on some American Dream. If I just put my head down, don’t ask questions, work hard, I might just scrape out a little material comfort for myself. Nobody notices the injustices as long as their comfortable, as long as the work is profitable. Who cares about the third world economy we just torpedoed? Who cares about the natives we just ripped from their land so we could plant some cash crop. Who cares about the glorified dog food supermarkets sell our children? Who cares about the innocents rotting in prison in the name of American freedom. Who cares as long as I make enough money to keep the A/C running and the mortgage paid? As for me I work hard for the money I do earn. Do I love what I do? Not a chance, but I knew that the education I was receiving was not worth the money I was paying for it. I didn’t drop out. I finished my degree. I made the conscious decision to leave. I wasn’t kicked out or flunked. I walked away from my 4.0 GPA and the academic gig because I knew I wasn’t getting reasonable skills out of it or better yet any reasonable fulfillment out of a days labor. My vision for a real education? A college that doesn’t have classes. I don’t need a teacher to throw information at me. I’m capable of finding and comprehending the basics of whatever I need to know to complete a given task. Colleges should assign community projects. No classes, just work experience. Practical skills like how to manage a project, build something,  grow food, improve the place where you live and make life a little better for your neighbors. Students these days are more than capable of learning. They got those skills in high school. What we really need are practical experiences in the real world and to not be insulated in a classroom. Colleges waste time and talent on meaningless projects, meaningless assignments because we live in a society obsessed with credentials and experts. The most profound moments in my life occurred outside of the classroom through my own personal projects. Instead of writing the same paper for the eighteenth  time I built a composter by hand, baked real traditional sourdough, clawed my way out of the industrial food system. Found honest ingredients to cook honest meals with. Fell in love with the perfect girl and got engaged. None of that happens if I finish my education. So am I miserable? Not a chance. Life isn’t perfect, but at least I’m not caught in the system of frustration that is the modern rat race for just that little extra piece of the pie. I am living life on my own terms. I’m free, truly free from  Fuck the American Dream. Fuck the picket fence and the nice house. Fuck the retirement money. None of it matters. You know what I want for this country? Strong local food systems, perhaps a place to buy raw milk without a SWAT team raiding the farm. A public school system that doesn’t destroy creativity and rob children of the intelligence they naturally possesses. I want tight knit communities built around small businesses, run by people you know and love. Fed by farmers you grew up with. No more faceless corporations selling dogshit wrapped in pretty advertising and stripping communities of wealth and natural resources. But I guess I’m ranting at this point. You don’t want to hear about any of those things. You’ve already put me in a box, written me off as lazy, just some miserable bitter fuck who wants to steal from you. Maybe one day you’ll realize thats exactly the way they want it. They want you to hate anyone with different view. Keep the people divided, keep them chasing the next shiny toy, Keep them oblivious. As for me, I’m gonna keep fighting for the things I believe in. I am confident I’ll find a meaningful place to apply my drive and passion because I love local food and I’ll trade any measure of material comfort for one child raised on real food instead of fucking Doritos and pop tarts. Just because I didn’t finish school and “make something of myself” doesn’t give you the right to write me off. I’ll just leave you with this. The comforts you surround yourself with, the fruits of your labor that you defend jealously, they mean nothing if you haven’t righted a wrong somewhere. Forget the nest egg. Go change the world. 

  2. Forgive me, but, I thought one of the ways a Government earns money is through, I don’t know, taxes?

    So if a Government needs cash, because it’s going belly up, then would not one of the right responses be to raise taxes, so more cash can be generated which would in theory start to solve the “strapped for cash” issues?  I mean, I know logic is going out on a limb and all but I thought that’s how things worked. 

    But correct me if I’m wrong, please, and explain how so my poor, socialist/commie Canadian brain can understand it?

    • I think a big misnomer is that “liberals are for high taxes”. I know no liberals who are just calling for high taxes for no reason. We loved those big refunds back when we had a giant surplus and deservedly so.

      What’s worrisome is the conservative logic that states we can just see-saw our way downward in perpetuity. When there’s a deficit, cut spending and programs until there isn’t. Then cut taxes since we now have extra surplus. After which, cut more spending and programs because the taxes we cut put us back in deficit country. Eventually there will be no federal government and we’ll be untaxed, leaving everyone in a lovely state of having few taxes but absolutely nothing holding the country together.

      • “I think a big misnomer is that “liberals are for high taxes”.”

        Right, because what liberals are really for is Big Government.  As big as it can get.  Because people earning “too much” money through free trade is evil, but doing and saying whatever’s necessary to get the biggest power-hungry liar re-elected by a “majority” is noble.

        It’s impossible to be against business and for jobs.  But libs believe in the impossible.  They can do this because they refuse to be suckered in by such trickery as “supply and demand.”  Libs know better than to fall for the mythology of economics.

    • Government doesn’t “earn” money. Government raises money through taxes.

      “So if a Government needs cash,”

      Not so fast.  “Needs cash” for what?  I hate to burst the liberal bubble, but government is not an end unto itself.  Who needs what, exactly?

      The better question — and the more immediate one — is why we are growing government and running record deficits while the economy is least able to fund it?

      I’d like to tell you that the thing to do now would be to ride out the recession by freezing federal growth and minimizing the government burden on trade, while dipping into our credit line to make ends meet.  I’d like to tell you that, but it appears the messiah has blown our rainy day credit on shiny new toys for big government libs, so I really don’t know how we’re supposed to get out of this now.

      Having spent, in less than three years, what would have been twelve years worth of credit at the old rate, all I can see that’s worth trying now is austerity measures.  But I can’t tell you for sure.  You see, there is no precedent for getting out of this.  Usually when failed regimes get to this point they just get overthrown in a coup d’etat.  I have no idea what else will happen at this point.

      • Firstly I’m not exactly a liberal, so there’s no liberal bubble here to burst.  My last sentence was only half sarcastic.  I honestly don’t really pay attention to anything economic because the entire thing makes my head hurt. 

        Maybe it’s just how I see it but a Government that “raises money” is, to me, earning money; no matter what you call it, it’s done through taxes.

        As mentioned, I’m Canadian so maybe it’s only our government who needs cash for stuff.  Up here we have things like medicare and social security/welfare and disability and roads that need taking care of and infrastructure that needs tending and garbage needing picked up and so on and so forth that are all paid by taxes in some form.  I know things are different in the US, your taxes are always lower than ours but then we have a lot more “freedom” than you, IMO.

        I do think your question of growing government but inability to fund it is of merit; why is that happening?  Personally, I think the government of the US is confused; it’s trying to be a Democracy while trying to be Capitalist (money is the most important thing, not people.) 

        I think saying Obama – I’m assuming you mean him – as a “Messiah” is really a little much, and takes all credibility out of your arguement.  Makes you look more like just another extreme conservative type than someone with a point to be made.

        Back to the point, Hanlon’s right.  The see-saw back and forth can’t go on forever.  It’s what’s tearing your country apart now.  I have heard of and talked to people who have seen this coming and are making plans to leave before the US goes belly up.

        IMO, I think the entire concept of “Free Trade” should be scrapped, at
        least between Canada and the US; aka NAFTA.  While it’s done “wonders”
        for the US, it’s gotten us nothing out of the deal except the US getting
        a way with our jobs, our money, and our goods (see the Softwood Lumber
        issue).  I’d love to see our jobs that have gone to the US, or over
        seas, come back here because it’s cheaper to produce here than
        elsewhere.  But that’s not going to happen anytime soon.

        I don’t think anyone’s against business, I think people are against Big Business getting all the breaks and bail outs while everyone else is suffering.  I think anyone against big business is for jobs; probably more concerned for jobs than the guys in big business.  Cause those guys don’t have to worry, they’re already making the big bucks.

        IMO, the whole “supply and demand” thing is misunderstood by everyone, conservative and lib alike.

      • “I think the government of the US is confused; it’s trying to be a Democracy while trying to be Capitalist (money is the most important thing, not people.)”

        There’s no reason a country can’t have both a democratic government and a capitalist economy.

        The problem we have here, though, is that only a minority of citizens pay significant income taxes.  Not surprisingly, the solution to every problem usually boils down to “tax the rich,” and we have politicians who build entire careers on that ignorant principle.

      • If the “rich” have most of the money while everyone else struggles to even feed themselves, I don’t see how taxing them a little more is going to hurt them.  I’m not saying tax them so they’re broke, but come on, these sports players or actors or these mega millionairs can’t even be taxed a decent fraction of their income?  If they’re smart enough to make the cash, they can be smart enough to keep making it and still pay more in taxes. 

        And IMO the US is proof that a country CAN’T be both democratic and capitalistic.  It’s completely at odds with each other.  Capitalism is like a twisted form of “Survival of the Fittest”, only instead of killing things it’s making cash and those who have the cash matter most.  It’s being proven over and over again and it’s continuing to be proven.  The “little people” don’t matter and never will in the society the US has; oh people cry out that they should, but in the end, they don’t.

      • Nonsense. Why bother taxing people with money so that other people can buy essential goods, when you could just order the vendors of those essential goods to give freebies to the poor?  Isn’t it true that anyone with goods to sell obviously has more than he needs for himself?

        Hint: Any objection you have to the freebies scenario applies equally to the income redistribution scenario, and you’re just fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

        Capitalism is simply freedom — what responsible people do with their rightfully earned wealth to protect and grow it.  Any difference between my description and your own is an error on your part — you’re thinking of something other than capitalism.  So yes, capitalism easily coexists with democracy, though it admittedly has serious problems surviving in an environment of thieving liberalism.

      • “Why bother taxing people with money so that other people can buy
        essential goods, when you could just order the vendors of those
        essential goods to give freebies to the poor?  Isn’t it true that anyone
        with goods to sell obviously has more than he needs for himself?”

        We’re not taxing people so they get freebies on everything and I’m not implying that, either.  I’ve no problem if people want to sell things, they should so long as people are willing to buy them.  The problem I have is if they make a multitude of millions on said product, they should in the end pay out more in tax.

        “Capitalism is simply freedom — what responsible people do with their rightfully earned wealth to protect and grow it.”

        HA, that’s only part of Capitalism.  It’s also about thumbing your nose to anyone who might need a helping hand, because now you have the money, they don’t so tough on them.  Even if it’s no fault of their own money isn’t coming to them easily.  As I said, Capitalism is a “Survival of the Fittest” Senerio except the survival is to get as much cash as you can and screw everyone else out of theirs if you can, while you can.

        “Any difference between my description and your own is an error on your
        part — you’re thinking of something other than capitalism.” 

        Repeat after me: To-ma-to.  To-mah-to.  In the end, it’s the same bloody thing.  Capitalism is about money, and how to make it and how to keep it, end of story.

        “So yes, capitalism easily coexists with democracy, though it admittedly
        has serious problems surviving in an environment of thieving liberalism.”

        Oh yes, because “Help thy fellow man” is such a horrible, horrible thing!  So in that case you’re against helping the elderly, the disabled, those who can’t work for true medical reasons (not talking those people on disability who fake injuries all their life for a free ride or think they’re entitled because they’re good at manipulating people into believing they’re mentally unstable), people who have worked but suddenly can’t for whatever reason… piss on them because “too bad, so sad, they should’a saved their cash?”  Well if your cash is going to pay off every bill you have and you have barely enough left over to feed yourself, how can you save?

        Yes, Capitalism is great!

      • “The problem I have is if they make a multitude of millions on said product, they should in the end pay out more in tax.”
        Why?  Because they have the ability?  As in “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs”? Ha.
        “HA, that’s only part of Capitalism.  It’s also about thumbing your nose to anyone who might need a helping hand, because now you have the money, they don’t so tough on them.  Even if it’s no fault of their own money isn’t coming to them easily.  As I said, Capitalism is a “Survival of the Fittest” Senerio except the survival is to get as much cash as you can and screw everyone else out of theirs if you can, while you can.”
        Yes, that’s all true about freedom.  I already told you that.  Free people don’t have to subsidize outcasts and social misfits.  Capitalism is a word Karl Marx made up because even he knew it would be tough to advance his principles as revenge for freedom.  He had to put a name on the political system of free people taking advantage of their property rights, and thus “capitalism” was born.
        Liberalism is about correcting for the fact that liberals are not satisfied with the results of freedom.  What people do, left to their own devices, does not create a politically correct result. Liberals are all about overriding freedom with their own mandates, and using the force of government to impose it. 
        Capitalism is just property rights — free people, especially achievers, can produce more value than they will consume, and if they dare to parlay it into a fortune then a bunch of stupid meddling zero-sum-game liberals stand at the ready to punish the achievement with “social justice.”  Frankly, I’d be embarrassed to be so ignorant as to think that way, squandering our American birthright.
        “Capitalism is about money, and how to make it and how to keep it, end of story.”
        Capitalism is about property. Property rights — the right to the fruit of one’s own labor, as opposed to slavery — the rights to the fruit of someone else’s labor.  Or, as you call it, “liberalism.”
        “Oh yes, because “Help thy fellow man” is such a horrible, horrible thing!”
        It isn’t “help thy fellow man.”  It’s sacrifice for the politically protected class.  Even if the subsidy injures the recipient, just as the black family has been destroyed in America.  Even if the sacrifice makes no economic sense, as with minimum wages that cause unemployment.  Even if a more noble cause goes without because it’s not politically favored.  Even if your very morality opposes the politically protected cause.  Liberalism misses no opportunity to be destructive to the fabric of society.
        “So in that case you’re against helping the elderly, the disabled, those who can’t work for true medical reasons”
        I never said that.  Look, the bottom line is that non-producers are dependent upon producers either way.  So what we’re really talking about is the terms of that relationship — whether it should be voluntary and agreeable, or whether we should pit our poor against our rich so that those who need it most will never learn the path to success.  The fact is that certain values are necessary to earn money and accumulate wealth.  And the people who earn money have earned the right to set the terms by which they will share it — that is how you promote values.  Real, productive values.  But you libs wouldn’t even know what that means — to you, wealth is just evidence of a crime.  You’re a bunch of economic morons.
        “Well if your cash is going to pay off every bill you have and you have barely enough left over to feed yourself, how can you save?”
        It depends on whether you’re smart enough to recognize which bills are less important than saving for your future, or whether voting Democrat is an integral part of your retirement plan.
        “Yes, Capitalism is great!”
        Yes, freedom was great, until libs “fixed” it.  Welcome to America in decline.

      • Thankfully your definition of Liberal doesn’t matter, since Liberal in America is still Conservative in Canada.  Also:  “But you libs..”

        Told you, not a Liberal, Canadian or otherwise.  I might have some “liberal” ideas, yes, but I’m not exclusive Liberal.

        Third, calling people morons further degrades your argument and proves you can’t even debate without resorting to name calling.  Thus I end the discussion with you, even if you might have made some points I can even agree with.

      • To clarify, what positions do US liberals hold that you, as a non-liberal Canadian, disagree with?  I’m sure you’ll make much more sense once you provide some contrast.

      • Thankfully your definition of Liberal doesn’t matter, since Liberal in America is still Conservative in Canada.  Also:  “But you libs..”

        Told you, not a Liberal, Canadian or otherwise.  I might have some “liberal” ideas, yes, but I’m not exclusive Liberal.

        Third, calling people morons further degrades your argument and proves you can’t even debate without resorting to name calling.  Thus I end the discussion with you, even if you might have made some points I can even agree with.

      • “Why bother taxing people with money so that other people can buy
        essential goods, when you could just order the vendors of those
        essential goods to give freebies to the poor?  Isn’t it true that anyone
        with goods to sell obviously has more than he needs for himself?”

        We’re not taxing people so they get freebies on everything and I’m not implying that, either.  I’ve no problem if people want to sell things, they should so long as people are willing to buy them.  The problem I have is if they make a multitude of millions on said product, they should in the end pay out more in tax.

        “Capitalism is simply freedom — what responsible people do with their rightfully earned wealth to protect and grow it.”

        HA, that’s only part of Capitalism.  It’s also about thumbing your nose to anyone who might need a helping hand, because now you have the money, they don’t so tough on them.  Even if it’s no fault of their own money isn’t coming to them easily.  As I said, Capitalism is a “Survival of the Fittest” Senerio except the survival is to get as much cash as you can and screw everyone else out of theirs if you can, while you can.

        “Any difference between my description and your own is an error on your
        part — you’re thinking of something other than capitalism.” 

        Repeat after me: To-ma-to.  To-mah-to.  In the end, it’s the same bloody thing.  Capitalism is about money, and how to make it and how to keep it, end of story.

        “So yes, capitalism easily coexists with democracy, though it admittedly
        has serious problems surviving in an environment of thieving liberalism.”

        Oh yes, because “Help thy fellow man” is such a horrible, horrible thing!  So in that case you’re against helping the elderly, the disabled, those who can’t work for true medical reasons (not talking those people on disability who fake injuries all their life for a free ride or think they’re entitled because they’re good at manipulating people into believing they’re mentally unstable), people who have worked but suddenly can’t for whatever reason… piss on them because “too bad, so sad, they should’a saved their cash?”  Well if your cash is going to pay off every bill you have and you have barely enough left over to feed yourself, how can you save?

        Yes, Capitalism is great!

  3. “All jobs are funded by the savings of wealthier men.” Well, that certainly applies to the current US Congress.

    • You might want to copy and paste my last reply into word. Its getting a little silly down there at the bottom of the page. 

  4. Pingback: Every Number Tells a Story « From Pine View Farm

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